The Fate of an Afghan Christian Convert
Published by Haseeb March 28th, 2006 in Current News, IslamI have been thinking about this topic, and was intially planning on refraining from addressing it. However, we live in a time where it is important to freely discuss and open matters, particularly those that are already being discussed around - and about - us.
Now in Afghanistan, we had Abdul Rahman, a convert to Christianity put on trial for his apostacy of leaving the fold of Islam. Would he be put to death? Fortunately he was let go, on ‘account of questionable mental health”. Many argue that he was only let go due to “the influence of President Bush”
But this still leaves us with the issue of Islam saying that you ahve to kill those who leave Islam? Inshallah I hope and pray that Imam Zaid Shakir addresses this topic in a future essay.
However I will leave you with something. Here is an except from Professor Juan Cole’s (exceptional) blog:
The doctrine that apostacy deserves the death penalty comes out of medieval Islamic canon law rather than from the Quran itself. If Islam is to survive into the next century, its adherents need to rethink all those medieval legal doctrines to which modern fundamentalists are so attached. It is monstrous, and is the height of hypocrisy for Saudis and others to fund the conversion of Americans to Islam while threatening Saudi converts to Christianity with death.
Some modern Pakistani jurists have written reformist books that dispute the legitimacy of executing people for apostasy in Islamic law. But their books are in English and although they might have been members of the Pakistan supreme court, they are laypersons rather than clerics.
As for the Quran itself, it says “la ikraha fi’d-din”– there is no compulsion in religion.
[2:256] There is no compulsion in religion: the right way has been distinguished from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the idol Taghut and believes in God has grasped the strongest handle; one that never breaks. God is the Hearing, the Knowing.
The Quran is forthright that the wages of unbelief and idolatry in this life are damnation in the next. But it does not permit coercion of the conscience in this life.
There is also Chapter 109, with its implication that the Prophet left the choice of religion, even unbelieving religion, to the individual:
In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.
Say, “O unbelievers.
I do not worship what you worship.
Nor do you worship what I worship.
Nor will I ever worship what you worship.
Nor will you ever worship what I worship.
To you, your religion; and to me, my religion.”Since the Quran recognizes the God of the Bible, these verses refer to the Meccan polytheists. And even they are being offered their own free will. To you yours, to me mine. Nothing about killing anyone about these matters of conscience.
Unfortunately, Abdul Rahman was not going to be judged by the Quran, but by the cruelty of the medieval jurists.
SubhanAllah we discussed this topic in our halaqa last night.
Danya posted this same topic and a brother posted a link to these which I thought explains it well:
http://www.sunnah.org/msaec/articles/apostasy.htm
http://www.abc.se/~m9783/fiqhi/sm1-gfh_e.html#apos
It is clear that your arguement as well as Cole’s is based on the premise that the Holy Quran is the sole source of legislation in Islam. It is also clear from you guest’s comments and her links that this contradicts the tradition of the Sunna and Hadith.
Are you saying that the Hadith and Sunna are not sources of legislation in Islam?
No, I am not saying that at all.
But given what the Quran says, do the hadith and sunnah then contradict the quran?
I’m not making any ruling here. I will let a suitable scholar handle this situation. Like I wrote in my post, I cant wait till somebody like an Imam Zaid answers this issue in a future essay, just like he so eloequenly has in response to the danish cartoons, issue of women leading prayers, etc.
But what do YOU think? Surely you don’t have to wait to be told what to think.
By no means do I believe a person should be killed for leaving the fold of Islam.
To believe or not to believe in anything, is a matter of the free will that Allah
(swt) has given us. There is no compulsion in Islam. To be Muslim is to submit one’s self entirely to Allah 
, and if one doesnt do that internally, what difference does it make for one to externally give it up as well.
Moreover, there are many Muslims nowadays who don’t even truly believe in Islam, let alone the very existence of a God for that matter. Are Muslims supposed to go hunt these people out and kill them now? This is ridiculous.
Instead of wanting him killed, why dont his Afghani bretheren pray that he becomes guided. Afte all, isnt it is Allah
who guides and misguides whomsoever he wills?
And far as the punishment goes, the Prophet Muhammad
has said: “Ward off the penalties (hudud) as much as you can”, as Ibn Majah titled it: “through ambiguities.” Our Mother `A’isha said, “It is preferable for the ruler to pardon mistakenly than to punish mistakenly.”
And God knows best.
This is another example of lack of wisdom and insecurity amoung muslim, everytime something like this happens, we, the muslims start running like headless chicken.
i think, most of the muslims i know, follows either their customs or traditons(in which they are born) or they heard it from someone, they don’t have there own source of islamic knowledge.
first of all what are these western christian missionaries doing in these WAR torn countries, with 25 years of devastation and humilation, i worked in hospitals where these Afgan refugees comes for treatment and there pain and suffering would break your heart. They were willing to convert to or change to anything that will take them out of the subhuman conditions.
this is because our tummies are full of food we can’t see beyond our own discomforts. Its amazing that Afganis still have faith.
Christanity is not a western religion that explain their insecurities (just like ours) thats y they target people who r hungry and suffering e.g Tsunami(Bill o’reilly vs CAIR), christian missionaries killed by hindu extermist(Australian and American)in india, Talibans taking christian missionaries hostage before latest Afgan war(US invasion)
and ask them what does American and British Army do to the soldiers who refuse to fight or wants to join the enemy…….i’ll bet they will tell u that ”thy let the soldier go and ask to take the weapon with them”………… old beat up propaganda.
Watch out for this ANON dude, he causes Mischief…….i saw him causes mischief on MPACUK website.
Wouldn’t it be better if we stopped making sure everything was politically correct and did what our beloved Phophet Muhammad would have done; such as pray that he finds what he is looking for [understanding that desprate times call for desprate measures] and that Allah
guides him to the right path?
I dont know whats worse; killing in the name of Allah
or killing one of Allah 
creations?
Thank you Haseeb.
Ahmed
Its obvious that this guy didnt convert just to get some food to eat. He was willing to die for what he believed in. If he had converted just because christian missionaries offered him food, he would have converted back to Islam as soon as this whole thing started. Obviously he really believed in Christianity.
Everybody else
Imagine if a christian country somewhere in Africa decided to rule by the bible and made it a crime to convert out of christianity. Then they arrested and put some Muslim convert on trial and were going to kill him for leaving Christianity to become a Muslim. How would you feel about his situation? And how would you feel towards the ones who were going to kill him?
thanks for bringing this issue up.
The other day in my little sister’s social studies’ class (in 6th grade), the teacher talked of this matter. Of course she did not do it in a favorable light concerning Islam. I was little upset because one as a public school teacher she has no right to be talking about this and second shes spreading wrong information.
I dont know how to react to this, any ideas??
Whats significant here is that all of you just thought about the one dude and none of you think abou the society at large. What are the implications of it either way, they are huge no matter which direction is taken. This case affects as much i would say in Afghanistan as Abortion or Prayer in School does in America. The society itself is probably not in agreement as to what is suitable and the question is if the government strips too far ahead of its people down a path for which they are not yet ready or may never want to take, say one of secularism, then more blood might be shed than that of this one man. Its important to realize that in a nation like Afghanistan its not always a good idea to do something which upsets conservatives lest chickens come home to roost.
When you pray brothers and sisters, dont pray merely for this one man but pray that there might be no more bloodshed because i forsee many attacks occuring in response to his release, many innocent women and children will die. When it comes to a case like this i realize how distant many people are from the real issues, they simply speak in ideological or techincal terms but they dont realize that every action has an impact, that its defined by context, that real lives are at stake and that nothing occurs in a vacuum. Its not that this issue is black and white or gray or any of that. Its that this will lead to violence and many of you speak of it as though it were simply a theological issue or a deeni issue or one of like hypocracy or any of that, this isnt at all about any of us, its about them, about the people in that society and what will happen to them….honestly i dont see a way out for Afghanistan….when you pray pray for all of them, pray for every innocent soul that gets corrupted, that gets trained to kill and indoctronated, pray for every person who loses a mother or father or child, pray for the family of this man and just realize how insane it all really is and how its not about you or me at all.
I am quite suprised that I decided to post but reading these comments have really disturbed me. Responding to throwing out “mideval canonical law,” absurd. Riddah was understood very clearly understood by the Sahaba, read your books of history and what happened when people refused to pay their Zakah, and they still prayed, forget about converting out of Islam into Christianity. No compulsion in religion is absolutely true, but this is in terms of entering the deen, Islam is not a revolving door, coming in when it suits and leaving when it doesnt, or coming in when you think its true and leaving when you might be not so convinced. It demands that you seriously examine your life and make a serious decision, because the consequences are serious, Jannah and Naar. Praying for the person to be guided is what we should be doing, but the hudood of Allah
must be passed for many reasons and for us to throw out these reasons because some later ‘Ulema formalized it in a book is also absurd. I am not going to pray because I learned it in a Fiqh book and not straight from the Qur’an is equal to Amina Wadud level statements. One must consider the entire picture in this scenario, and there is one level which we all seem to see, the personal level, and in this day in age we all love ourselves so we say oh if he doesnt believe than ok let him leave. Unfortunately we must break ourselves out of this bubble and realize that apostasy is a fitnah for the people around as well and this combined with the fact that it is treason is why the punishment is so severe. If he doesnt believe, then let him not believe but making it public is not allowed, and this is the principle in almost all matters of sins within the Shariah. The making of it public spreads the fitnah and corrupts the society and the very fact that we are arguing over such well established matters shows how far we have veered as an ummah. And to the supposed argument:
Subhanallah, what is a better blessing than shahadah?
And the other response, sorry MR I still love you, :
Once again this whole argument that look we’re terrible how can we judge, is a broken record. It is not for us to judge, but it is for us to establish the law of Allah
(swt). The first principle in Fiqh, actually in Islam is, actions are based on their intentions. But there is no way for a judge to know one’s intentions, so he must judge according to the action, it is for Allah 
to repay who was wronged and who was meant to be rewarded. We are living a life bound to this world only and we must realize that Allah 
is All Just and that these matters will be sorted on the Day Of Judgement. Therefore not applying the law because we are not following our responsibilities is a terrible excuse. This is no way makes an excuse for ourselves though not to be continously trying to improve our own character and those around us. Anything I have said that is right it is from Allah 
, and anything wrong it is from myself. Wallahu ghafooru raheemun
Salam, I was wondering whether this could be a government conspiracy or not, what if this whole thing is a set up in order to make Islam look bad. This man who converted to Chrisitianity supposedly lived in Germany for 16 years, and converted to Christianity while he was living in Germany, then he decides to return to Afghanistan. I mean come one, how stupid could someone like him be, why would you return to Afghanistan, where most people are extremly religious, and openly tell people that you are a convert to Christianity without expecting any negative consequences. I personally believe that there is a good chance that this is all a conspiracy by the CIA or the Zionists in order to make Islam look bad. I mean this story is the top headline on CNN everyday, almost every American is aware of it, and they are sitting there and thinking, “Those crazy radical Muslim, how can they do something like this” I am not saying I am right, I just think there is a possibility that this is a conspiracy, I just want to know what everyone else thinks!
I think that you are not allowed to kill a person if they convert to Christianity. Islam is a merciful religion. What would that say about us?
Haseeb is right. We should not make a ruling but all evidence points in the opposite way. I would never have believed that our Prophet could ever sanction something like this.
Mako
I will have to agree with Haseeb and most of the others, and that means disagreeing with Yaser. I don’t mean to “attack” Yaser here, but I feel it worthy to weigh in on some of his comments. Please correct me if I err.
Yaser says:
Doesn’t this clearly show that the issue was something other than rejection of faith? Some have suggested that the punishment was for political apostasy, ie. abandonment and treason, rather than rejection of faith. I like part of the treatment of this linked above by Jenn, http://www.sunnah.org/msaec/articles/apostasy.htm :
A community that refused to pay the Zakah threatened the stability of the Muslim state, as Zakah was a form of taxation. Similarly, one who left the Muslim community to fight against it was a threat - a political threat, not an ideological one. This is especially the case because having been a Muslim, the “apostate” would probably know the strengths and weaknesses of the Muslims’ military. On the other hand, one who merely leaves Islam, like the Christian in Afghanistan, is hardly a threat to any state.
This elaboration makes more sense, and gels nicely with the Quranic principle: “There is no compulsion in religion.” The mission of the Prophet Muhammad
presupposed freedom of religion: people were called upon to consult their reason and experience to realize that Islam was the truth. Freedom of religion can’t just work one way; if we expect others to allow conversion into Islam, we can’t play by a different set of rules.
Yaser thinks that the public declaration of disbelief is a Fitnah. But the early Muslims were surrounded by non-Muslims, people who not only expressed their own beliefs, but ridiculed Islam. But their disbelief only strengthened the Muslims’ faith (and it was their physical assault on Muslims that threatened Muslims). In fact, exposure to a variety of beliefs may be a strength, because the Quran calls on people to evaluate their beliefs. Exposure to other beliefs will force people to examine their beliefs; and if Islam is the strongest belief system, it will prevail.
It makes sense, then, to understand the Quranic injunction as the underlying principle, and the prescription of capital punishment as applying to something totally different: political apostasy, or treason.
And God knows best.
Samira you are absolutely right, look at the sequence of assault on Islam,Quran and Mohammad(PBUH). Again its not about one person, most of the things we are referring regarding this man is assumption or told by western(discredited) media,these stories are for the consumption of western population.
watch TSUNAMI:Bill O’Reilly v CAIR, that will explain lots of things and how they work and supported by the establishment.
Look at the Governments in western countries most of them are Right wing and most of them supported attacking unarmed and defenceless muslim countries(including Denmark).
we have just finish explaining, condemning and justifying cartoon issue and now this ………they are not interested in what Qu’ran and Hadith says
so stop being so defensive Lisen to IMAM HAMZA YUSUF
http://nadeem.lightuponlight.com and start asking qestions.
Assalam Alaikum,
Do you consider the ahadith a part of ruling from the Shari’ah or not? In other words, does the Sunnah carry any weight in your eyes? I say this because the punishment for apostacy is found in hadith and not in Qur’an:
Narrated ‘Ikrima: ‘Ali burnt some people and this news reached ibn ‘Abbas, who said, “Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, ‘Don’t punish (anybody) with Allah
’s Punishment.’ No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’” — Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Chapter 149, Number 260. p. 160-161.
Narrated ‘Ikrima: Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to ‘Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn ‘Abbas who said, “If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah
’s Apostle forbade it, saying, ‘Do not punish anybody with Allah 
’s punishment (fire).’ I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah 
’s Apostle, ‘Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.’” — Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 84, Chapter 2, Number 57, page 45
Narrated Abu Burda: Abu Musa said, “I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash’ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah
’s Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, ‘O Abu Musa (O ‘Abdullah bin Qais!).’ I said, ‘By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.’ As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, ‘We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or ‘Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.’” The Prophet then sent Mu’adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu’adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Musa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, “I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah 
and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, “Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, ‘I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah 
will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.’” (Sahih Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 84, Chapter 2, Number 58, p. 45-46)
Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu’adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu’adh asked, “What is wrong with this (man)?” Abu Musa replied, “He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism.” Mu’adh said, “I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah
and His Apostle. (Sahih Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 89, Chapter 12, Number 271, p. 201)
There are many ahadith in the Bukhari, Muslim, Dawud etc. Without accepting the ahadith as part of the Shari’ah, your Islam is incomplete.
Just wanted to clear up that issue.
Take Care,
Samir
Salam,
Also, I want to comment on what Abdullah said:
Ya Akhi, read this hadith:
Narrated Abu Musa: A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu’adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu’adh asked, “What is wrong with this (man)?” Abu Musa replied, “He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism.” Mu’adh said, “I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah
and His Apostle. (Sahih Bukhari: Volume 9, Book 89, Chapter 12, Number 271, p. 201)
Abu Musa was sitting with a kafir who apostated from Islam. There are no signs of this apostate being an “Ideological Enemy” by joining the ranks of the kuffar and physically fighting Islam. Instead, he is sitting NEXT to Abu Musa. This hadith is repeated and is very strong as well as clear.
Yaser is correct. It is fitna; why? Because you are opening the gates for more Muslims to leave Islam and become kafir. Is this a good thing or bad thing? In fiqh, we are to take the lesser of the two evils. So you have two options:
1. Not allow the person to be killed, therefore, opening the gates to kufr
2. Killing the person so that the gates are shut tight
Everyone is responsible, especially the leaders. How will you face Allah
on the Day of Judgment knowing that these ayaat exist:
5:44 And whoever does not judge by what Allah
revealed, those are they that are the kafiroon.
5:45 And whoever does not judge by what Allah
revealed, those are they that are the dhalimoon.
5:47 And whoever does not judge by what Allah
revealed, those are they that are the faasiqoon.
Kafir, Dhalim and Faasiq; for Allah
to label you that on the Day of Judgment is heart-breaking and knee cracking.
Ya Akhi, the early Muslims that were surrounded by the kuffar established Islam over them. They didn’t sit back and said, “There is no compulsion in religion… we shouldn’t fight them. It’s good to have all these various faiths so we can evaluate our ‘Aqeeda.” This is ridiculous. They established Islam, did da’wah and Jihad.
Look at the story of the assassination of Ka’b bin Ashraf, who was always a kafir. He was ASSASSINATED under the direct order of the Prophet (s); a few Sahaba went to his locality and killed him. Why? For only one reason only: he insulted Muhammad (s). That’s it. Can we say the Prophet (s) was mistakened? Was he a terrorist? For God’s sake, Ibrahim (as) destroyed the idols. Isn’t that State Terrorism?
How blind are we to the truth. And how immersed are we in falsehood.
Take Care,
Samir
We all love judging and thinking we have the final word and understand everything, now dont we…
We dont have any Islamic states, we dont have a khilafah.
Usul is quite complex and not always as simple as you like to make it seem.
And contrary to what you like to belive, while Islam doesnt change with the times, specific Islamic laws and rulings (that arent related to ibadat) can change over time, given the proper derivation and understanding of the laws and divine sources from which laws are established.
Historically, ulema have argued that it is illegal for Muslims to live under non-Muslim rule, that its illegal for Muslims to take part in non-Muslim societies, etc. We live in changing world, and it takes the right people with the right knowledge with the proper hikma to be speaking on these issues.
So like I said earlier, lets wait for a real scholar, like Imam Zaid to address this issue in one of his future essays. I never gave a ruling, i just was asked what i felt based on my opinion, and thats what i gave.
And Allah
knows best.
Salaam ‘Alaikum
Talking about issues in which we have little knowledge other than what we picked up from an English translation of a book is fitnah. Usurping the authority and position of the scholars by debating things that it is haram (or at the very, very least makruh) for us to be debating is a fitnah — and is a bigger reason why the Muslims are in the state we are in than some Afghan guy deciding he wants to believe in a Three-in-One deity. Declaring takfir on a large portion of the Ummah knowing there is hikmah and ikhtilaf in that issue is a fitnah. Letting ourselves get pulled into media created crises is a fitnah.
Nicely put …….Umm Zaid
Salam,
The issue is not to wait for Imam Zaid or Shaykh Hamza; the issue is, where do you stand from your research and understanding? On Youm al Qiyama, you are responsible for your own ‘aql.
There is no explicit reference in the Qur’an or Sunnah that states you have to have a Khilafah in order to implement the hudood. Although, logically it makes sense to have a Khilafah (and I don’t disagree), but we shouldn’t blind ourselves with it. For example, in Afghanistan, the Muslims there are use to the Shari’ah. In addition, it is 99% Muslim and there is a huge populace of Mujahideen there. So when you tell them, “No brother, you cannot implement the hudood in your Country because it is not Khilafah,” they are simply going to ignore you and fulfill the command of Allah
. That’s the difference between Muslims in America and Muslims in Afghanistan. We are all talk; they are about action. I am not saying we should go and start cutting off the hand of every theif we see; rather, I am making it clear that when such a Country has somewhat of an enviornment of Islam, then nobody should hold back the hudood. You and I should be over there helping them in making it a Khilafah instead of criticizing them. Talk is easy.
The concept of Muslims living amongst the disbelievers has also left our minds totally and blinded our understanding of our obligations. The Scholars didn’t declare it haram; rather, Rasoolullah (s) has declared it haram:
“Whoever joins a Mushrik (non-Muslim) and lives with him is like him” (Abu Daud, at-Tirmidhi).
Jabir relates that the Prophet said, “I am free of every Muslim who lives among the Mushrikeen.” We asked, “Why is that, O Messenger of Allah
?” He replied, “Their fires should not be visible to one another.” (Abu Dawud)
It is haram to live in the land of the disbelievers; I know that there are a few exceptions (i.e., da’wah, hospital etc.), but America and Britain is different. These 2 countries are fighting Islam, the Muslims, and the Mujahideen on both the battlefield and the media front. Therefore, if you want to live in this Country, it cannot be for da’wah purposes; it has to be for Qitaal purposes. In any case, what in the world are we doing here when it is fard al ‘ayn to do Qitaal fe Sabeelillah in some parts of the Muslim world?
Take Care,
Samir
ASTAKFIRULLAH THIS JUAN COLE IS A KAAAAAAAAAAAFIR, HE DOES NOT KNOW ISLAMIC LAW, I DO, I HAVE STUDIED WITH SHAIKH AHMED ZARINI, AND HE TOLD ME THAT THIS IS HARAAAAAAM
Islam is based on naql (texts) and ‘aql (the way u understand the texts). Some people just have the texts - we call them naql-heads.
- Shaykh Hamza Yusuf
Salam,
Islam is based on Iman and ‘Amali-Saaleh. Under the guise of these two are how we implement our Deen. Remember, our ‘aql is to be guided by the naql and not the other way around.
Take Care,
Samir
In india recently, some guy said ‘i divorce you’ 3 X in his sleep and they went to consult some religious people and guess what?? they said they would have to get divorced! the girl would have to remarry someone, spend a night with him, and then get divorced from him in order to remarry her husband! lol. but according to some of the guys on here, this is the way to go since medieval laws are best.
Somoeone wrote:
And to the supposed argument:
“Imagine if a christian country somewhere in Africa decided to rule by the bible and made it a crime to convert out of christianity. Then they arrested and put some Muslim convert on trial and were going to kill him for leaving Christianity to become a Muslim. How would you feel about his situation? And how would you feel towards the ones who were going to kill him?”
Subhanallah, what is a better blessing than shahadah?
Come on! Your glib remark only shows how little you really know. You can’t answer the guys question so you give him a little response that doesnt mean anything. Let me answer what your REALLY thinking. You would be angry and would probably cry yourself to sleep, maybe wet the bed, and feel very wronged in the morning. If you really think that something like that happening is a great blessing, you should go to Arkansas to the most redneck town you can find and try to start converting people. Then if they kill you it will at least be a great blessing and youll be happy about it.
“samira Says:
Salam, I was wondering whether this could be a government conspiracy or not, what if this whole thing is a set up in order to make Islam look bad.”
Yea, thats a real possibility…b/c muslims on the whole are very educated and don’t overreact and do stupid things. im being sarcastic. Lets get serious here. Our religion is full of people cursed with low IQ’s b/c of improper diets. Then you have the ones who might have had good diets. Their brains developed normally but look at some of the responses on this board. They totally condone killing the guy cuz he converted.
“If he doesnt believe, then let him not believe but making it public is not allowed, and this is the principle in almost all matters of sins within the Shariah.”
You don’t need the CIA helping out when you have fundamentalists like that making things happen in countries like afghanistan. And in conclusion, lets keep in mind…ONE DUDE. who converted 16 years ago. These religious CLERICS in afghanistan and some misguided people on this board are calling for his death because its going to be bad for islam and sow subversity and afghanistan will turn…jewish right?–meanwhile, about 1000 future converts to Islam were probably deterred from joining b/c of it all.
And while we’re on the topic of dumb clerics, i hate to break it to some of you but alot of these guys are probably not all that GOOD. I mean, they call for protests when they know it wont accomplish anything, make islam look bad, and result in the deaths of a few dozen people. I mean, theyre trying to earn a living just like anyone else. just b/c theyre religious leaders in their community doesnt mean theyre good people. and if you think the case of pedophile priests is just an american church problem…think zarqawi and some of these guys in afghanistan.
clash of the Egos…….
anybody want some ice cream?
its gone all quite……..
probably gone for ice cream break, or analyzing and answering the points we have made…..u better watch out Mujahhideen Ryder.
I like Ice Cream. Lets go MR.
I am not going to continue a debate, I honestly didn’t want to get into it to begin with. Allahu ‘Alam.
I’m kinda new to the site, and so i just wanted to ask you guys…..
Is Yaser a real sheik or alim? name sounds familiar for some reason. And oh yea, WOW!!! Never have I seen such a clash of the egos, or as some people like to put it “self-esteem”. What really intrigues me is how people always think they’re right and no matter how much “evidence” they cite the dudes(and dudettes) with the opposing view always seem to believe that they can refute the guy with not only their view, but they continue to analyze the other guy’s statement like they themselves know what picture the other dude’s response was intended to paint. Also, if something is lawful in Islam it doesn’t mean it always has to be justifiable according to the standards of this society. Living in this environment has shaped our minds in a way that leads us to sometimes disregard certain islamic rules and laws because in our minds they just don’t seem to be the “right” and “nice” thing to do. Aren’t we supposed to be blind followers? Hey if Qur’an and sunnah leads to the conclusion that the guy has to be killed, then okay that’s the ruling, let’s just accept it. Why is it so hard for our WWF, ice cream sundae, American baseball influenced minds to accept these rulings. Frankly, I’ve got to say I really am apathetic towards the guy and his situation, on da real-I’m looking out for me since I gotta represent myself on the day of judgement. I know for a fact that none of you are going to help me then( and I probably won’t help you either), unless I have a child who becomes a hafiz- then maybe i’ll get that ticket to jannah, although I’m not really sure what nullifies the tcket…..but anyways let’s all just try to be exceptional muslims and not pull what the afghan pulled unless you wanna burn in the pits of hell, personally I’d rather not. Oh yea, one way to test if you’re ready for the hellfire is….(kids, don’t try this at home- if you do i’m sorry ur an idiot) try to putting ur finger in the fire for at least two seconds, now tell me how much that hurts…..now imagine fire much hotter than that and all over your body, not a pretty picture,eh….well thats enough rambling on by me. And oh yea, DAMN HASEEB you get MAD hits from all over the world.
No, Im not a Sheikh or Alim, thats why I try never to post on anything, but this really got my temper going. Sorry if I came off as arrogant or if anyone felt offended to me. But I think the last post was very good, we all have to realize that we’ll be held accountable to Allah
(swt). Back to this Linguistics paper. Wallahu ‘Alam.
He isnt a sheikh, but he’s pretty self righteous, so he may as well be one
Salam,
Remember: Islam doesn’t change for a land; the land changes for Islam. Work for Establishing Islam. If not here, then work somewhere else. Just make sure you are doing it.
Samir
Samir thanks for the reminder……your intellect and wisdom just blows my mind.
ps….keep off the mushrooms sheik
“Aren’t we supposed to be blind followers? Hey if Qur’an and sunnah leads to the conclusion that the guy has to be killed, then okay that’s the ruling, let’s just accept it.”
Wow. can you tell me where Osama is?
“Why is it so hard for our WWF, ice cream sundae, American baseball influenced minds to accept these rulings.”
I just traced your IP address to a cave.
“Frankly, I’ve got to say I really am apathetic towards the guy and his situation, on da real-I’m looking out for me since I gotta represent myself on the day of judgement.”
wow, you sound like a great guy. i know your going to get those trillion years of living outside the laws of physics with many women.
“I know for a fact that none of you are going to help me then( and I probably won’t help you either), unless I have a child who becomes a hafiz- then maybe i’ll get that ticket to jannah, although I’m not really sure what nullifies the tcket”
you can also read a surah 47 times under a tree of knowledge on top of the secret skull moutain, inside the ultra secret cave with an entrance shaped like the koran, while thinking conformist thoughts and you’ll get 12 tickets to jannah and that can be used to save 12 people or separately to save 24 stillborn babies, or you can use it to save 6 murderers, im not sure what the sunnah says but im sure the formula can be worked out. You can purchase a calculator by doing 3.8 good deeds while inside the secret mountain. Man, can you FEEL it?? its so close! i would totally blindly follow any obscure egyptian sheik from the year 1200’s teachings, even if they are contrary to “modern opinions” when i just KNOW this reward is so near me! yeeeeah! Day of judgement! wooooooo!
WOW… “brother” i feel the love eminating through your pores…… even though you hurt me, i still love you for the sake of Allah
( even though I don’t know who you are)…. i am in no way trying to prove i’m right and then gain the greatest (fake)satisfaction of my life when you have ur paradigm shift, i just felt like backing up my brother Yaser since u guys started to “blog-jump/mob” him. and, did i say anything wrong, i thought my post would survive criticism from others but gosh darnit it seems i’m wrong. “oh brother” , oh brother please will you forgive me for my shortcomings. and r u muslim, if not haseebs blog is a nice place to be , if u are then it still is a nice place to be…and by the way F.Y.I. I don’t live in a cave, maybe a bubble, but not a cave. but i definitely wouldn’t mind living in one if it was as cool as the BATCAVE……..
oh yea, and haseeb , i kinda felt that the post made by “oh brother” was a tad bit on the blasphemous side…. so if u have any contact with the brother plz let him know we don’t speak like that here…. i mean write like that here.
’some dude’ im right here posting. why not just address it to me? And if your looking for censure of ideas, i say just move to saud and be confronted with only a filtered set of facts. You’llreall like it there because everyone thinks like you! itll be fun! no disagreement!
’. i think a kafir friend is worth a whole lot more than someone who supposedly has your back because he thinks he gets points to go to heaven. Do you get why? Its b/c your definition of love means you’d stab me in the back as soon as you interpreted a passage in a book differently. That’s just artificial and at the core of my argument. You can’t be good and do something bad and say “dont worry, despite the fact that it LOOKS bad and causes only harm, on the day of judgment it will be proven that it was actually a good thing, because the definition of good is different according to my interpretation of this one books or some long bearded guys definition of whats good.
And im not looking for ‘love for the sake of Allah
I’m not trying to be blasphemous but i find that these terrorist attacks, shia on sunni on kurd violence, israeli settler bombings in palestinian schools, hamas bombings in israeli schools, england train bombings, inquisition, etc are all due to people blindly following rulings without perspective but doing it b/c they believe in the ULTIMATE LAW without regard to what they KNOW is actually good. I think the laws were made to bring about a positive existence - not to be followed to the ultimate end without regard to anyone else and and in a short minded way, with the person only hoping of getting into heaven.
FACT: Did you know the guys who bombed the trains killed innocent people? Did you also know they did it b/c they believed they believed they were doing it for god? And guess what…you know you would do it in a SECOND if you interpreted it in the same way. Because if you didn’t, youd be adhering to ‘modern’ opinions of whats good and whats bad. Yeah, thats why i always say the difference between a terrorist who will kill your family and a religious person who strictly adheres to his interpretation of the law is a sudden shift of opinion in a passage - i dont always say that but i just did. Its a very short jump and i honestly believe that anyone who is like that is dangerous because if you can honestly say that, you can also interpret the koran to say blow up buildings and youll go to heaven, oh no, you wont just go to heaven, youll go to the 85th level of heaven and get a 9.7ounce gold crown. of course if you blow up two buildings, youll get a 20oz gold crown and be able to bring a friend up with you. im sure the koran says all that…
To those who want the muslim world to go back to the middle ages:
Why do you complain so much when the United States bombs the muslim world back to the middle ages?
excuse me “brother” but get real. why do you think that just because were in the modern era our islam is better then those of our ancestors, what makes you think they were neanderthals and we’re such intellectuals. Please get off your pedestal and stop thinking that eveyrone is so dumb. You talk about one passage changing a mindset, there are more than 1.5 billion muslims who haven’t blwon anything up, and yet you still feel like attacking us and blaming interpration by a laymen- which none of us laymen are supposed to be doing. INterpreting is the job of the ulema. Have a nice day.Bye.
I hate to break it to you ’some dude’ but people ARE dumb. It’s a fact. I haven’t attacked 1.5 billion muslims. I’ve attacked people like you who are a small % of those people. Youre one of those guys who sticks to a middle aged mentality and with your tunnel vision, your willing to overlook anything you destroy in the hopes of achieving YOUR ultimate end - getting to those heavenly virgins. In your opinion, the original law is best, despite the fact that you live in a changing world and those laws will fail to bring about the same results NOW as they did 1500 years ago. The point of religion is to move mankind forward, from point A to point B, the second point being some type of utopia. Your using an outdated map with inaccurate representations of the landscape and as a result, people like you are causing trouble for those around them b/c your map tells you theres nothing in front of you and your driving a tank forward as if nothing stands in your way. Meanwhile, the landscape has changed over 1500 years and you just crashed through a house and ran over a fence. My GPS tells me theres a house here and a river there and as a result, I must be SMART in order to get to point B. That’s one of the hallmarks of intelligence. Artificial intelligence is just that b/c it cannot adapt to changing situations like the human mind can unless someone has told it to. If you can’t adapt, go to the desert where you won’t cause others damage.
s someone just built a house there. Your willing Your map says your driving through
yeah! b/c the neanderthals who call for killing this convert have their eye on ONE THING. The PRIZE. Heaven. That’s what they want and they will kill anyone they have to in order to get to it.
spot on, “oh brother”!
It seems you are very ignorant of islam and it’s teachings, yes the ultimate goal of Muslims is heaven, but that doesn’t mean we can’t indulge in all the good that this life provides us. I’m sorry to inform, but you don’t know anything about me. So stop passing judgments about how me and my “middle-aged” mentality. I might not be as good a muslim as you, but at least I don’t deny the truth and try to justify my wrongdoings.When you refer to the small % of people like me , who are you talking about. The Qur’an was meant for all eternity, not just for the society of 1500 years ago. Islam is perfect, it doesn’t mean muslims are …..what you see today is a hijacked and mutilated version of the truth. People’s emotions have clouded thier judgment so far as to force them into an ignorant state. You’ve forced yourself into a mindset where you wouldn’t even for one second put yourself in another persons shoes and see the reasoning behind their thinking. Of course you don’t even see what they see or hear what they hear, so how would you know what they think? A guy doesn’t walk into a starbuck’s in Israel because he’s looking forward to copulating with heavenly virgins, rather he’s filled with hate and anger and has nothing to live for since the Israeli troops had raped his sister, shot his father, and mutialted his mother. Remember, Muslims are people too, we have feelings just like you do.
I really don’t feel like arguing with you anymore because it’s just annoying. I’m never going to change ur mind , and ur never going to change mine. Maybe I’m stupid and your a genius, Allahu Alim. I pray that Allah
gives us both guidance. Ameen.
I think the %age of families being raped and mutilated and then shot by IDF is significantly lower than the numbers of bombers walking into starbucks in Israel with bombs…And btw, not everyone in starbucks has killed and mutilated a muslim woman and shot a muslim man. You might have heard of Jews. Well there are a significant number of liberal and dovish members in their evil cult. If you can tell me that thats what you would do in response to aggression against you, i really hope you dont live anywhere where other human beings live.
“at least I don’t deny the truth and try to justify my wrongdoings.”
Yup, im a real wrongdoer for defending the guys right to convert without being killed for the sake of the greater good.
And your a real upstanding person for admitting the truth - if someone in your family dies, you are allowed to kill anyone from that offenders ethnic group. Thats an excellent policy. Thats what slobodan believed, hitler also, Pol Pot, etc, all upstanding citizens of History.
”oh brother”
tell us more, your insight on these current affairs and history is amazing.
please promise that u keep spreading knowledge and intellect, we muslims are so fortunate that people like you are still around.
you must have seen lots of suffering, humiliation and injustices done by the muslims.
please ,please tells us your views and what u ”think” as well. …….i have learned so much.
oh brother, ur a comlete dumbass.
i support “oh brother”… As a Muslim you shouldnt be going around blowing urself up no matter What happens.
just read Yaser’s post. It should explain everything.
speically they should not blow themselfs up for fun, as Muslims are doing.
Muslims are jealous lot, they cannot see other nations and countries with there tummy full of food and building walls and army bases while they are digging graves for there kids on there own land.
ahmed and sulayman,
I feel sorry for you.
1. ahmed your grasp on sarcasm is way too weak. if your going to be sarcastic, you need to use something i said and them parody it. what you did was say something ive NEVER said and tell me to speak more on the matter….
And in fact, i have seen some injustices done by your type of muslims. Your uncle zarqawis been killing people right and left in iraq, muslim woman, man, child, goat, doesnt matter. As long as it moves, he kills it because clearly, hes fighting a war against the “west”. and the best way to do it in his mind is by killing muslims. Now, i know you dont know right from wrong and you are way too much of a coward to fight a soldier so I know your probably planning to bomb a pizzeria, but you do realize that killing innocent people isnt allowed? yeah yeah, i know what your going to say. “but they have jewish ancestry! it is therefore my RIGHT to kill them!” Well like i said, i just hope that you reconsider and maybe hang yourself in protest instead of taking out innocent people.
2. Sulayman! hey! whats up dude! I hadnt heard anything about you - figured you blew yourself up! man its great to hear from ya! you probably can’t refute anything i said so you called me an ‘idiot’. This coming from a guy with no future! oh wait…youve got heaven waiting for your after you carry out that bombing in the shiite nursery right? i totally forgot! I mean, who needs girls in real life right?? And hey, just a bit of advice… when your refrigerator stops working, dont do what you normally do…
Sulayman: “hey, if it aint working, blow it up!”
Try to call a repairman and actually fix a problem. now go write a blog about how oppressed you are.
i am not being sarcastic at all, y are u so paranoid. you seems to me quite a violent and aggressive man(i.e is if u r a man).
calm down and stop repeating yourself and there is no need for you to explain…..and blame others.
we all are finding your aggressive behavior quite alarming.
if you werent being sarcastic im pretty surprised. i mustve mistaken what you wrote b/c it was a little too ‘flattering’
i dont think i was being aggressive. i just urge all my brothers out there who support pizzeria and starbucks bombings to make a real statement and blow themselves up in a secluded area in the name of peace and record this so someone can post it on the internet. this will spark a real debate and will undoubtedly reestablish worldwide sharia law…ahhh, sharia law, its such a real possiblity!
why are u harrassing and threatening us?
u better watchout otherwise there won’t be a differance between u and uncle zarqavi……
stop spreading hate and look for alternate source of information and please join us in 21st century.
ok i really dont k