Al Maghrib Salafi? SunniForum Sufi?
Published by Haseeb January 22nd, 2006 in Islam, PersonalAfter writing a post advertising an Al-Maghrib course last week, i was surprised at the comments and emails i got. The major point was: Al-Maghrib is salafi - how could u recommend it?
I wanted to address this for a while, but before I do I wanted to comment on a greater issue I have noticed in the Muslim community in general. And it’s all based on something Shaykh Abdullah Bin Bayyah said at the RIS conference last month, which was something to the effect of :
The more knowledge you have, the more open-minded you are with a greater understanding of the dynamic pluralistic deen that is Islam, but the less knowledge you have, the more narrow-minded and strict you are.
It is so saddening how true that quote is. The problem lies mostly with young Muslims today, who sincerely are trying to better themselves in gaining knowledge of their deen. However, after learning a little bit about fiqh, or a certain aspect of one scholar or another, they quickly begin to categorize themselves and others - and make (unqualified) judgments.
And dont just take my word for it. Go to Sunniforum.com - with a primarily sufi-leaning/ strict madhab following audience - and what they think of salafis, and groups such as Al-Maghrib. Then go to the Al-Maghrib forums - with a primarily salafi audience - and read what they say about Sufism and groups such as the Zaytuna institute, or sites such as sunnipath.com. It will always be kids making such comments about these other groups, and never real scholars.
These true sincere scholars have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for one another, so who are we, as little kids who have learned 1/10000th of what these scholars know to go about making such claims about this scholar or that group. Granted, yes you may differ on such a scholar or group about a particular understanding they have on a certain issue, but what you say will not change anything. These differences have existed for quite some time now. If you want to categorize me, yes u can say I lean towards the sunniforum following in my understanding of Islam, as I do try to strictly follow the Hanafi madhab, and primarily listen to ’sufi’ type scholars such as Shaykh Hamza and Shaykh Hussain Abdul Sattar (among many others) and what not, but I will never - ever - dare criticize a scholar such as Shaykh Muhammad Al-Shareef, or a Imam Siraj Wahaj over their salafi-leaning views. I also greatly love and respect these people as well and benefit from their lectures and work! For all you who categorize yourself in the ’sufi’ category, do you have any idea how much Shaykh Hamza and Imam Zaid and ‘ur scholars’ love and admire Imam Siraj Wahhaj? And during RIS, Shaykh Muhammad Al-Shareef (the founder of the ’salafi’ Al-Maghrib institute) translated one of grand shaykh Abdullah Bin Bayyah’s (who probably has more knowledge than all of u people on sunniforum and almaghrib forums combined) lectures. It was beautiful just to see 2 scholars venerated by these two audiences of people together on stage just for that reason alone. Just look at how much these two scholars loved and admired one another. Shaykh bin Bayyah (who I would consider the farthest thing from salafi) even complimented Shaykh Muhammad Al-Shareef for his knowledge, work, and activism during his talk.
You guys know NOTHING compared to these scholars. So stop generalizing things about them. Again I have nothing against these forums, or groups. And I dont believe there is anything wrong about having strong viewpoints about following a madhab, etc., but you have no right to talk bad about other organizations and scholars in general! Even if u do disagree with Al-Maghrib’s salafi-nature (and how they are ‘methodologically divergent’), what is wrong about learning Islamic history, seerah, islamic ethics, etc. based on traditional sources (that no madhabi would disagree with)?!?!?
I am sick of Muslims arguing and debating over matters such as this. When so many of our muslim brothers and sisters arent even praying, dressing immodestly, losing their iman, etc. and we are having the same arguments about sufi vs. salafi; almaghrib vs sunnipath, and this and that; it shows how backwards our priorities are. So stop criticizing others! So after you go about spending 5+ years of your life studying fiqh and hadith and quran (FULL TIME) then, and only then should u be allowed to criticize the following of a madhab, or any one of the great scholars such as Muhammad Al-Shareef and their diligent work. Leave the debates of such issues to real scholars and stick to purifying your hearts and working on attaining knowledge to strengthen your iman to implement it yourself and setting an example for your families and communities! And Allah 
knows best.
20 Responses to “Al Maghrib Salafi? SunniForum Sufi?”
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from: United States us
Pingback on Jan 23rd, 2006 at 6:40 am
Bismillah.
Assalamu alaikum
May this reach you in the best state of health and iman.
Brother, although I applaud your sentiments, I would like to point out that these differences between these ‘Ulema are not minor, but rather significant differences and some people would like to know the methodology of the particular institution that they might potentially study under. So although I think it is acceptable to identify institutions of the learning of the deen with a particular methodology, it should not be used as an insult or in a derogatory manner.
May Allah
(swt) grant us both jannat al firdaus.
masalama
Asalamu alaykum,
I don’t think a condescending attitude (kids), coarse languange (h***), or that labelling others (salafi, sufi) is beneficial to sincere discourse. And by continuing that trend in your article, you only help to perpetuate the mistaken ways you seem to want to correct.
It is AlMaghrib policy that forum users are not allowed to insult others or disparage any groups, organizations, and scholars and if they do their post will be edited or deleted.
MAY PEACE BE UPON YOUR SOUL, HEART, MIND, AND BODY…AMEN.
TELL ME ABOUT IT BROTHER….
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHH GOD…
ITS CRAZY OUT THERE….
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH ALL YOU’VE SAID ABOVE…
AND TOTALLY SUPPORT THAT…
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH…
ENOUGH ASSUMING, AND BUILDING FACTS UPON ASSUMPTIONS THAT HAVE NO BASIS OF TRUTH WHATSOEVER…
BUT WE SHOULDN’T FORGET THAT MUSLIMS WILL BE DEVIDED INTO 73 SECTS…
SO……
MAY Allah
STABILIZE US ON HIS DEEN…
AND GUIDE US TO ALL THAT IS PURE…
HE IS CLOSER THAN THE VEINS IN MY NECK…
LOTSSA RESPECT BROTHER…
BLESS YOUR BLOG…AMEN.
MAY Allah
PS. ALL MOROS OUT THERE, BREAK YOUR EGO, WE DON’T NEED THAT…
Salaam ‘alaikum,
Putting aside what the ‘kids’ on those forums have to say; having corresponded with and spoken to members of the AlMaghrib faculty, the truth of the matter is that there is a wide range of dispositions even within the organizaton. Muhammad alShareef is in fact a good example of a “moderate” non-traditionalist. They anti-slander rule is his idea and it is usually applied objectively, though not always. Others on the faculty are less moderate and quite proud of that fact. Some of these individuals will publicly disparage and insult (and really slander) major scholars and their students. I wouldn’t even want to repeat the things I’ve heard said against some the most respected Ulama of our age, even the recently deceased.
So while I agree that students and laypersons are overstepping their limits in these discussions, it is not wrong to say that giving your money to AlMaghrib helps to fund some of this outrageousness. If you love our scholars and respect their dignity, then don’t support organizations that allow them to be dishonored in the name of Islam.
On final point, Shaykh Bin Bayyah’s compliments to Muhammad alShareef were almost all directed to the youht in the audience that they should emulate his good character, work ethic and zeal for spreading Islam, not an endorsement of his methodology.
An interesting twist in the tale happens, however, when we consider that our Salafi brethren–scholars and others–*actively* warn against those who “blindly” follow madhhabs; those who are Ash`ari; and hold great Sufis to have been mushrikin or “drowning” in shirk.
While some may be able to exercise high “turn the other cheek” restraint, most people don’t find that within themselves.
Once bitten, twice shy. Twice bitten, and most get rather upset.
hmm, interesting,
but we are not getting what Br. Haseeb is saying here,
he is saying that mostly it is the young kids taht are very sectarian.
Granted a few scholars become that way, due to jealousy. As jealousy between scholars does occur. But who are we to criticise scholars. You people writing stuff here(at least one of you) are again slandering Almaghirb Institute.
You have not taken their classes or read their materials and yet you are saying you have heard them speak about other scholars?
Also, there are sunni scholars that have insulted, “salafee” scholars as well, does that justify it?
The thing is taht all of us are misguided because if we truely believed we were right, we would not need to bash others to prove ourselves right.
Thank you Br. Haseeb for an important post and I am sorry you got attacked for advertising Fiqh of Love
and by the way
it was not even Fiqh of Hate.
Cannot sufis and salafees get married?
waht fiqh of marraige do they follow then?
that of Rasool SAW
its about time you people start calling yourselves Muslims.
subhanallaah!
What I said wasn’t slander, as it was true. And it’s not even backbiting since the people in question are proud of their beliefs and say these things publically. I also refrained from mentioning individual names in any negative context.
Also, I have taken AlMaghrib courses, read non-AlMaghrib material (books and articles) from their shuyukh and attended a number of their lectures, in addition to corresponding with them and having sat with them individually and in small groups.
Well said br. Haseeb. Our concern should be working on commonalities and leaving the details for scholars to sift through.
Some points to keep in mind (or i am just ranting)—–
1. almaghrib scholars have encyclopedic knowledge of the tradition. They are very well learned. That’s not even a problem. One of the problems is how those who take knowledge from them or from madhhabi scholars conduct themselves online or real life.
2. If anyone talks about Shariah, he or she must fully disclose the tradition he orients himself in. I have no problem with scholars reaching de novo interpretation but it must be argued from and through juristic tradition and not outside it. By the way juristic tradition does not end by 9-10th century ad, with brief flashes in 14th century, and then takes off fully in 18th century. I want to know what the general positions that were derived before were. I want accuracy in evidential representation and not selective hadith & Quran citation that only proves one’s points. It’s incredulous that a group would claim to be the sole representer of Islamic law but then not present the existing opinions accurately. Same goes for madhhabis too! I do not want simple transpositions of a fatwa reached in totally different context to American local contexts with out due consideration. (Is that why I am leaning more and more toward Maliki methodology since they are the most adamant about this?)
3. Use of the “salafi” or “sufi” words has to be more nuanced. Not all salafis are the same. Egyptian salafi is not the same as the Saudi salafi. Same goes for “sufis”.
4. “Categories”, used properly is very beneficial and useful. If someone is speaking for Islamic law, acting like his is THE ISLAMIC LAW, but in reality presenting an opinion that’s actually minority view, is I think guilty of “false universalism” unless of course he discloses the fact that his is a minority view.
5. As laymen we must challenge our scholars positively and constructively. Lazy community will produce lazy scholars. We should up our discourse and hold our scholars to high standards in terms of knowledge and erudition. We should not be satisfied with half-baked answers and bad logic. We should be attentive while in front of ahl al-ilm but that does not mean we should not ask questions, or discuss these matters among ourselves. But we should be aware of the heavy burden that is upon us.
6. What really troubles me is that many of us nowadays do not take Islamic discourses as seriously as they do other subjects. We do not take nuanced and complicated stance toward Islamic law. We do not want to think long and hard about each Islamic issue but we want to make final and authoritative pronouncements on them. We find meanings if others accept our views and we get frustrated when other do not accept our views so we end up condemning them. We do not have humility when approaching the texts nor do we have fear that we may not have done full justice to the ethical commands of the text. I got taste of it first hand when arguing over a meaning of ahadith , I told my interlocutor that have u consulted what the madhhabs have said about this hadith. He unfazedly stated that I do not follow madhhabs so why should we care about what madhhabi scholars have said! I looked at him, speechless, unable to respond, thinking 1200 years of juristic tradition down the drain. Or I have seen how some madhhabis would narrowly apply the substantive results of their muftis which have no bearing on American contexts.
ok AlMaghrib is salafi. SunniForum is sufi.
wats the big deal. move on.
i just want to add that AlMaghrib is doing a really good job marketing and producing a brand name in the US and Canada. it seems that Allah
(swt) has really blessed that organization.
“All that is gold does not glitter,
not all those who wander are lost;
the old that is strong does not wither,
deep roots are not reached by the frost.”
- Tolkein, LOTR
Salam
I know Sh. Abdullah bin Bayyah personally. He is amazing masha Allah
. He is well respected in many of the Ashari and Salafi circles in Mauritania and around the world.
He is also deeply respected in Saudi Arabia with many “Salafi” type scholars showing him enough respect. Namely someone like Sh. Salman Al Awdah, who is very close to him.
It is nice to see Sh. Abdullah who is so active for Islam and not involved in these petty issues and he does not like to be associated with any particular group as well.
May Allah
protect him and all of the ulema of this beautiful deen and have mercy on the scholars who preceded and may Allah 
bring new ulema who will carry the tradition of this deen.
“Whosoever amongst you lives after me (i.e. my death), HE WILL SEE MUCH DIFFERING. SO STICK TO MY SUNNAH AND THE SUNNAH OF THE RIGHTLY GUIDED KHALIFAS AFTER ME. Bite onto it (i.e. the Sunnah) with your molar teeth. And beware of newly-invented matters, for every newly-invented matter is an innovation.”
its funny how the issue that was addressed in the article, is what we see in the comments. “Well brother thats true but you know ……they ARE salafi.” *rolls eyes*
Bottom line: those of us who go around calling eachother salafi or sufi or Allah
knows what, are doing nothing but causing divisions in this ummah when it needs to be united the MOST.
The bottom line is this: RESPECT AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER. We need to remain united despite our differences. Islam will never become a bonafide American religion if we keep arguing over our differences.
Jinnazaman: I agree, it is fine to identify instututions based on their methodology and source of knowledge. Theres nothing wrong with that in my opinion either.
Almaghribi: Well that policy obviously isnt being followed. Ive read on multiple occasaions of people badmouthing Zaytuna, and particularly Sunnipath (saying it is unrelaiable due to stances on certain issues.
Sara: aameen
First Hand Knowledge: thank you for your first hand knowledge. Your comments are especially helpful. I personally dont know of any of the schoalrs besides Shaykh AlShareef, and if they do say certain things about scholars that is totally condemnable, and a just reason for not supporting Al-Maghrib. However i have never heard of such things.
Shaykh Faraz: Thank u again so much for blessing my blog with your presence. I am not defending any salafi people who bash ’sufi’ scholars, and prominent beliefs that we believe to be true (importance of following a madhab, etc.). As such hating, or warning against, is completely wrong. I have no respect for people who disrespect other scholars.
Salamcafe: thank you for your comments. And I agree with you, alot of this banter is probably based on jealosy and pride, two severe diseases of the heart. May we all work to purify our hearts and be in a constant rememberance of Allah
(swt).
Yumna: I agree 100%. Just like Shaykh Hamza has said in his Advice to the Seekers, Argumentation about Religion is maqruh (disliked) for ulema, and it is haraam for common people!
TR: Subhanallah, whoever this brother is, may Allah
reward and protect him and give him the strength and wisdom to become a great scholar and influence for all Muslims across the world. Mashallah, you have brought up some very profound points which we should all think about. Islamic discourse (not to be confused with argumentation) is a SERIOUS issue which many of us are afraid to take on. It requires us to open our minds and think beyond the box. Islam is indeed a pluralistic dynamic religion, unlike what many Muslims would like to believe.
MR: Whats the big deal? lol read my post again!
Sunni Styles: nice poem
O: Thank you for those comments. Subhanallah, Shaykh Abdullah Bin Bayyah has opened up my eyes greatly in understanding how dynamic our deen is. You are absolutely right. This man, with an encyclopedic knowledge of Islam, as well as a strong understanding of the modern world today is so amazing. May Allah
mercifully bless and reward him and allow us all to benefit from him. The fact that every1 loves and respects him from the most spiritual Sufis, to salafi wahabis in Saudi, shows the true mercy of Islam, and how Islam needs to be portrayed by our scholars.
sister: Theres nothing inheretently wrong with classifying some1 as salafi, if they openly believe in the salafi methodlogy, or sufi, if they have given bayah to a sufi shaykh and are on a personal spiritual quest to study the science of tasawwuf. But the problem is judging people and arrogantly condemning one another. You quoted a hadith on innovation, but what is innovation? Without proper studying of hadith and the context of the hadith with its historical significance and relaiton to other sources (read Dr. Jackson’s new series on the seerah from his Islamic Literacy Project), sometimes its unjust to just pick out a hadith and say something out of context. For example. there are many sound sahih hadiths that on surface - contradict one another!
You mentioned bida, or innovation. But what exactly is a bida? Read this: The Concept of Bida in Islamic Shariah (By Shaykh Nuh Keller). But then again im sure there are some salafis out there who dont even recognize shaykh Nuh as a valid scholar…
My 2 cents.
I don’t know why ‘anyone’ is not forthright, I can only speak for Salafees, but really - if you are a Salafi, and you ascribe yourself to Ibn Taymiyah and Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab, and personalities such as Ibn Uthaymeen, Ibn Baaz, etc.
99.9 times out of 100, weather you ‘are nice’ and ‘open minded’ publically, or outwardly, - in the end you are Salafi, and the Salafi way is very clear about how they feel about different sects, schools of thought.
Even if outwardly you would not assume so, by their implicit approval of their scholars, and individuals - they are just that - a Salafi.
Nothing wrong with that, but all of this open mindedness between ’soofies’ and ’salafees’ is almost nothing more than a Salafi using Hikmah to try and convert a soofie into being a Salafi - trust me, on this. I can only speak for Salafis, but any Salafi minded individual, scholar, personality I have met is like this except for one person, and even he tended to mostly be like this.
BTW Salafi is definitely the school of thought I ascribe to (just so we are clear on that).
(btw) the actual point being, I encourage all non Salafis to attend Salafi Institutes (such as Arees / AlMaghrib / AlKawthar).
And so do they, which is why they/we market to you.
Just think we should all be clear about goals, objectives, etc.
Asalamu alaykum,
Rather than making blanket assesments, I would invite everyone to visit the AlMaghrib Institute forums at forums.alamghrib.org and one will see instructors and a student body that display a higher level of adaab then can be found on almost any other site.
Generally, when we see poor adaab on the AlMaghirb forums it is from non-AlMaghrib students or the more junior students who may have only taken 1 or 2 classes.
Wa salaam.
Mr. Sarfaraz Jamal - You dont get my point at all. What you said proves my very point. The whole concept of “converting” from sufism to salafism, is totally wrong and antithetical to the principles of Islam. ISLAM is a universal banner that should unite All Muslims regardless of differences.
I am outraged by your comment that 99.9 times out of 100 that nice and openminded people are Salafi. I disagree wholeheartedly with that.
It all comes down to this: what is the source of your traditional islamic knowledge. THe great scholars of today will never promote sectarian divide over sufi/salafi, etc!
Read my next post (Jan 23, 2006) - This post’s comments are closed.
Feel free to post follow up comments after that post!